And I discovered, as I talked to depressive people, that they have many delusional perceptions.


And you say, "I love you, your wife loves you, your mother loves you."


You can answer that one pretty readily, at least for most people.


But people who are depressed will also say, "No matter what we do, we're all just going to die in the end."


Or they'll say, "There can be no true communion between two human beings.


To which you have to say, "That's true, but I think we should focus right now on what to have for breakfast."


A lot of the time, what they are expressing is not illness, but insight, and one comes to think what's really extraordinary is that most of us know about those existential questions and they don't distract us very much.


There was a study I particularly liked in which a group of depressed and a group of non-depressed people were asked to play a video game for an hour, and at the end of the hour, they were asked how many little monsters they thought they had killed.


The depressive group was usually accurate to within about 10 percent, and the non-depressed people guessed between 15 and 20 times as many little monsters -- as they had actually killed.


A lot of people said, when I chose to write about my depression, that it must be very difficult to be out of that closet, to have people know.


They said, "Do people talk to you differently?"


I said, "Yes, people talk to me differently.


They talk to me differently insofar as they start telling me about their experience, or their sister's experience, or their friend's experience.


Things are different because now I know that depression is the family secret that everyone has.


I went a few years ago to a conference, and on Friday of the three-day conference, one of the participants took me aside, and she said, "I suffer from depression and I'm a little embarrassed about it, but I've been taking this medication, and I just wanted to ask you what you think?"


And so I did my best to give her such advice as I could.


And then she said, "You know, my husband would never understand this.


He's really the kind of guy to whom this wouldn't make any sense, so, you know, it's just between us."


On Sunday of the same conference, her husband took me aside, and he said, "My wife wouldn't think that I was really much of a guy if she knew this, but I've been dealing with this depression and I'm taking some medication, and I wondered what you think?"


They were hiding the same medication in two different places in the same bedroom.


And I said that I thought communication within the marriage might be triggering some of their problems.


But I was also struck by the burdensome nature of such mutual secrecy.


It takes up so much of your time and energy, and silence about it, it really does make the depression worse.


And then I began thinking about all the ways people make themselves better.


I'd started off as a medical conservative.


I thought there were a few kinds of therapy that worked, it was clear what they were -- there was medication, there were certain psychotherapies, there was possibly electroconvulsive treatment, and that everything else was nonsense.


If you have brain cancer, and you say that standing on your head for 20 minutes every morning makes you feel better, it may make you feel better, but you still have brain cancer, and you'll still probably die from it.


But if you say that you have depression, and standing on your head for 20 minutes every day makes you feel better, then it's worked, because depression is an illness of how you feel, and if you feel better, then you are effectively not depressed anymore.


So I became much more tolerant of the vast world of alternative treatments.


And I get letters, I get hundreds of letters from people writing to tell me about what's worked for them.


Someone was asking me backstage today about meditation.


My favorite of the letters that I got was the one that came from a woman who wrote and said that she had tried therapy, medication, she had tried pretty much everything, and she had found a solution and hoped I would tell the world, and that was making little things from yarn.


She sent me some of them. And I'm not wearing them right now.


I suggested to her that she also should look up obsessive compulsive disorder in the DSM.


And yet, when I went to look at alternative treatments, I also gained perspective on other treatments.


I went through a tribal exorcism in Senegal that involved a great deal of ram's blood and that I'm not going to detail right now, but a few years afterwards I was in Rwanda, working on a different project, and I happened to describe my experience to someone, and he said, "Well, that's West Africa, and we're in East Africa, and our rituals are in some ways very different, but we do have some rituals that have something in common with what you're describing."


And he said, "But we've had a lot of trouble with Western mental health workers, especially the ones who came right after the genocide."


I said, "What kind of trouble did you have?"


And he said, "Well, they would do this bizarre thing.


They didn't take people out in the sunshine where you begin to feel better.


They didn't include drumming or music to get people's blood going.


They didn't involve the whole community.


They didn't externalize the depression as an invasive spirit.


Instead what they did was they took people one at a time into dingy little rooms and had them talk for an hour about bad things that had happened to them."


He said, "We had to ask them to leave the country."


Now at the other end of alternative treatments, let me tell you about Frank Russakoff.


Frank Russakoff had the worst depression perhaps that I've ever seen in a man.


He was, when I met him, at a point at which every month, he would have electroshock treatment.


Then he would feel sort of disoriented for a week.


Then he would have a week of going downhill.


And then he would have another electroshock treatment.


And he said to me when I met him, "It's unbearable to go through my weeks this way.


I can't go on this way, and I've figured out how I'm going to end it if I don't get better."


"But," he said to me, "I heard about a protocol at Mass General for a procedure called a cingulotomy, which is a brain surgery, and I think I'm going to give that a try."


And I remember being amazed at that point to think that someone who clearly had so many bad experiences with so many different treatments still had buried in him, somewhere, enough optimism to reach out for one more.


And he had the cingulotomy, and it was incredibly successful.


He has a lovely wife and two beautiful children.


He wrote me a letter the Christmas after the surgery, and he said, "My father sent me two presents this year, First, a motorized CD rack from The Sharper Image that I didn't really need, but I knew he was giving it to me to celebrate the fact that I'm living on my own and have a job I seem to love.


And the other present was a photo of my grandmother, who committed suicide.


As I unwrapped it, I began to cry, and my mother came over and said, 'Are you crying because of the relatives you never knew?' And I said, 'She had the same disease I have.' I'm crying now as I write to you.


It's not that I'm so sad, but I get overwhelmed, I think, because I could have killed myself, but my parents kept me going, and so did the doctors, and I had the surgery.


We live in the right time, even if it doesn't always feel like it."


I was struck by the fact that depression is broadly perceived to be a modern, Western, middle-class thing, and I went to look at how it operated in a variety of other contexts, and one of the things I was most interested in was depression among the indigent.


And so I went out to try to look at what was being done for poor people with depression.


And what I discovered is that poor people are mostly not being treated for depression.


Depression is the result of a genetic vulnerability, which is presumably evenly distributed in the population, and triggering circumstances, which are likely to be more severe for people who are impoverished.


And yet it turns out that if you have a really lovely life but feel miserable all the time, you think, "Why do I feel like this?


And you set out to find treatment for it.


But if you have a perfectly awful life, and you feel miserable all the time, the way you feel is commensurate with your life, and it doesn't occur to you to think, "Maybe this is treatable."


And so we have an epidemic in this country of depression among impoverished people that's not being picked up and that's not being treated and that's not being addressed, and it's a tragedy of a grand order.


And so I found an academic who was doing a research project in slums outside of D.C., where she picked up women who had come in for other health problems and diagnosed them with depression, and then provided six months of the experimental protocol.


One of them, Lolly, came in, and this is what she said the day she came in.


She said, and she was a woman, by the way, who had seven children.


She said, "I used to have a job but I had to give it up because I couldn't go out of the house.


In the morning, I can't wait for them to leave, and then I climb in bed and pull the covers over my head, and three o'clock when they come home, it just comes so fast."


She said, "I've been taking a lot of Tylenol, anything I can take so that I can sleep more.


My husband has been telling me I'm stupid, I'm ugly.


Well, she was brought into this experimental protocol, and when I interviewed her six months later, she had taken a job working in childcare for the U.S. Navy, she had left the abusive husband, and she said to me, "My kids are so much happier now."


She said, "There's one room in my new place for the boys and one room for the girls, but at night, they're just all up on my bed, and we're doing homework all together and everything.


One of them wants to be a preacher, one of them wants to be a firefighter, and one of the girls says she's going to be a lawyer.


They don't cry like they used to, and they don't fight like they did.


Things keep on changing, the way I dress, the way I feel, the way I act.


I can go outside not being afraid anymore, and I don't think those bad feelings are coming back, and if it weren't for Dr. Miranda and that, I would still be at home with the covers pulled over my head, if I were still alive at all.


I asked the Lord to send me an angel, and He heard my prayers."


I was really moved by these experiences, and I decided that I wanted to write about them not only in a book I was working on, but also in an article, and I got a commission from The New York Times Magazine to write about depression among the indigent.


And I turned in my story, and my editor called me and said, "We really can't publish this."


And she said, "It just is too far-fetched.


These people who are sort of at the very bottom rung of society and then they get a few months of treatment and they're virtually ready to run Morgan Stanley?


She said, "I've never even heard of anything like it."


And I said, "The fact that you've never heard of it is an indication that it is news."


So after a certain amount of negotiation, they agreed to it.


But I think a lot of what they said was connected in some strange way to this distaste that people still have for the idea of treatment, the notion that somehow if we went out and treated a lot of people in indigent communities, that would be exploitative, because we would be changing them.


There is this false moral imperative that seems to be all around us, that treatment of depression, the medications and so on, are an artifice, and that it's not natural.


It would be natural for people's teeth to fall out, but there is nobody militating against toothpaste, at least not in my circles.


People then say, "But isn't depression part of what people are supposed to experience?


Being able to have sadness and fear and joy and pleasure and all of the other moods that we have, that's incredibly valuable.


And major depression is something that happens when that system gets broken.


People will come to me and say, "I think, though, if I just stick it out for another year, I think I can just get through this."


And I always say to them, "You may get through it, but you'll never be 37 again.


Life is short, and that's a whole year you're talking about giving up.


It's a strange poverty of the English language, and indeed of many other languages, that we use this same word, depression, to describe how a kid feels when it rains on his birthday, and to describe how somebody feels the minute before they commit suicide.


People say to me, "Well, is it continuous with normal sadness?"


And I say, in a way it's continuous with normal sadness.


There is a certain amount of continuity, but it's the same way there's continuity between having an iron fence outside your house that gets a little rust spot that you have to sand off and do a little repainting, and what happens if you leave the house for 100 years and it rusts through until it's only a pile of orange dust.


And it's that orange dust spot, that orange dust problem, that's the one we're setting out to address.


So now people say, "You take these happy pills, and do you feel happy?"


But I don't feel sad about having to eat lunch, and I don't feel sad about my answering machine, and I don't feel sad about taking a shower.


I feel more, in fact, I think, because I can feel sadness without nullity.


I feel sad about professional disappointments, about damaged relationships, about global warming.


Those are the things that I feel sad about now.


And I said to myself, well, what is the conclusion?


How did those people who have better lives even with bigger depression manage to get through?


And what I came up with over time was that the people who deny their experience, and say, "I was depressed a long time ago, I never want to think about it again, I'm not going to look at it and I'm just going to get on with my life," ironically, those are the people who are most enslaved by what they have.


Shutting out the depression strengthens it.


And the people who do better are the ones who are able to tolerate the fact that they have this condition.


Those who can tolerate their depression are the ones who achieve resilience.


So Frank Russakoff said to me, "If I had a do-over, I suppose I wouldn't do it this way, but in a strange way, I'm grateful for what I've experienced.


I'm glad to have been in the hospital 40 times.


It taught me so much about love, and my relationship with my parents and my doctors has been so precious to me, and will be always."


And Maggie Robbins said, "I used to volunteer in an AIDS clinic, and I would just talk and talk and talk, and the people I was dealing with weren't very responsive, and I thought, 'That's not very friendly or helpful of them.'" "And then I realized, I realized that they weren't going to do more than make those first few minutes of small talk.


It was simply going to be an occasion where I didn't have AIDS and I wasn't dying, but could tolerate the fact that they did and they were.


It turns out I've learned to give all the things I need."


Valuing one's depression does not prevent a relapse, but it may make the prospect of relapse and even relapse itself easier to tolerate.


The question is not so much of finding great meaning and deciding your depression has been very meaningful.


It's of seeking that meaning and thinking, when it comes again, "This will be hellish, but I will learn something from it."


I have learned in my own depression how big an emotion can be, how it can be more real than facts, and I have found that that experience has allowed me to experience positive emotion in a more intense and more focused way.


The opposite of depression is not happiness, but vitality, and these days, my life is vital, even on the days when I'm sad.


I felt that funeral in my brain, and I sat next to the colossus at the edge of the world, and I have discovered something inside of myself that I would have to call a soul that I had never formulated until that day 20 years ago when hell came to pay me a surprise visit.


I think that while I hated being depressed and would hate to be depressed again, I've found a way to love my depression.


I love it because it has forced me to find and cling to joy.


I love it because each day I decide, sometimes gamely, and sometimes against the moment's reason, to cleave to the reasons for living.


And that, I think, is a highly privileged rapture.


Police are seeking witnesses in relation to an accident on the B 215 between Stolzenau and Leese

Zu einem Unfall auf der B 215 zwischen Stolzenau und Leese sucht die Polizei Zeugen.


Because a car was coming towards him in his lane, the driver of a VW Touran had to swerve and grazed the crash barrier.

Weil ihm ein Auto auf seiner Fahrspur entgegenkam, musste der Fahrer eines VW Touran ausweichen und touchierte dabei die Leitplanke.


On Thursday evening, at around 7.55pm, the 34-year-old from Rehburg-Loccum was en route in his VW on the B215 coming from Stolzenau in the direction of Leese.

Am Donnerstagabend war der 34-Jährige aus Rehburg-Loccum mit seinem VW gegen 19.55 Uhr auf der B 215 aus Stolzenau kommend in Richtung Leese unterwegs.


In the region of the Stolzenau bypass, a passenger car came towards him in his lane, so he had to swerve to the right.

Im Bereich der Ortsumgehung von Stolzenau kam ihm ein Pkw auf seiner Fahrspur entgegen, so dass er nach rechts ausweichen musste.


In doing so, the Touran driver grazed the crash barrier.

Dabei touchierte der Touran-Fahrer die Leitplanke.


The driver of the oncoming car, a Mercedes Benz, had overtaken a lorry and continued his journey without concerning himself with the traffic accident.

Der Fahrer des entgegenkommenden Pkw, ein Mercedes Benz, hatte einen Lkw überholt und seine Fahrt fortgesetzt, ohne sich um den Verkehrsunfall zu kümmern.


According to information provided by the victim of the accident, it may well be that the Mercedes driver had not noticed the accident at all.

Es kann nach Angaben des Unfallgeschädigten gut sein, dass der Mercedesfahrer den Unfall gar nicht bemerkt hatte.


The police are now appealing for witnesses of the incident as well as the driver of the vehicle that caused the accident to get in touch with Stolzenau Police Station via the telephone number 05761 / 92060.

Die Polizei bittet nun Zeugen des Vorfalles sowie den Fahrer des Verursacherfahrzeugs, sich unter Tel. 05761 / 92060 mit dem Kommissariat in Stolzenau in Verbindung zu setzen.


Charlie Rose: So Larry sent me an email and he basically said, we've got to make sure that we don't seem like we're a couple of middle-aged boring men.


I said, I'm flattered by that -- — because I'm a bit older, and he has a bit more net worth than I do.


CR: So we'll have a conversation about the Internet, and we'll have a conversation Google, and we'll have a conversation about search and privacy, and also about your philosophy and a sense of how you've connected the dots and how this journey that began some time ago has such interesting prospects.


Mainly we want to talk about the future.


So my first question: Where is Google and where is it going?


LP: Well, this is something we think about a lot, and our mission we defined a long time ago is to organize the world's information and make it universally accessible and useful.


And people always say, is that really what you guys are still doing?


And I always kind of think about that myself, and I'm not quite sure.


But actually, when I think about search, it's such a deep thing for all of us, to really understand what you want, to understand the world's information, and we're still very much in the early stages of that, which is totally crazy.


We've been at it for 15 years already, but it's not at all done.


LP: Well, I guess, in thinking about where we're going -- you know, why is it not done? -- a lot of it is just computing's kind of a mess.


You know, your computer doesn't know where you are, it doesn't know what you're doing, it doesn't know what you know, and a lot we've been trying to do recently is just make your devices work, make them understand your context.


Google Now, you know, knows where you are, knows what you may need.


So really having computing work and understand you and understand that information, we really haven't done that yet.


CR: Tell me, when you look at what Google is doing, where does Deep Mind fit?


LP: Yeah, so Deep Mind is a company we just acquired recently.


First, let me tell you the way we got there, which was looking at search and really understanding, trying to understand everything, and also make the computers not clunky and really understand you -- like, voice was really important.


So what's the state of the art on speech recognition?


So we started doing machine learning research to improve that.


And we started just looking at things like YouTube.


But we actually ran machine learning on YouTube and it discovered cats, just by itself.


And we realized there's really something here.


If we can learn what cats are, that must be really important.


So I think Deep Mind, what's really amazing about Deep Mind is that it can actually -- they're learning things in this unsupervised way.


They started with video games, and really just, maybe I can show the video, just playing video games, and learning how to do that automatically.


CR: Take a look at the video games and how machines are coming to be able to do some remarkable things.


LP: The amazing thing about this is this is, I mean, obviously, these are old games, but the system just sees what you see, the pixels, and it has the controls and it has the score, and it's learned to play all of these games, same program.


It's learned to play all of these games with superhuman performance. We've not been able to do things like this with computers before.


And maybe I'll just narrate this one quickly.


This is boxing, and it figures out it can sort of pin the opponent down.


The computer's on the left, and it's just racking up points. So imagine if this kind of intelligence were thrown at your schedule, or your information needs, or things like that.


We're really just at the beginning of that, and that's what I'm really excited about.


CR: When you look at all that's taken place with Deep Mind and the boxing, also a part of where we're going is artificial intelligence.


LP: Well, I think for me, this is kind of one of the most exciting things I've seen in a long time.


The guy who started this company, Demis, has a neuroscience and a computer science background.


He went back to school to get his Ph.D. to study the brain.


And so I think we're seeing a lot of exciting work going on that sort of crosses computer science and neuroscience in terms of really understanding what it takes to make something smart and do really interesting things.


And how fast do you think we are moving?


LP: Well, this is the state of the art right now, understanding cats on YouTube and things like that, improving voice recognition.


We used a lot of machine learning to improve things incrementally, but I think for me, this example's really exciting, because it's one program that can do a lot of different things.


CR: I don't know if we can do this, but we've got the image of the cat.


This is how machines looked at cats and what they came up with. Can we see that image?


LP: Yeah. CR: There it is. Can you see the cat?


So this is learned from just watching YouTube.


And there's no training, no notion of a cat, but this concept of a cat is something important that you would understand, and now that the machines can kind of understand.


Maybe just finishing also on the search part, it started with search, really understanding people's context and their information.


I did have a video I wanted to show quickly on that that we actually found.


["Soy, Kenya"] Zack Matere: Not long ago, I planted a crop of potatoes.


Then suddenly they started dying one after the other.


I checked out the books and they didn't tell me much.


["Zack Matere, Farmer"] Potato diseases.


One of the websites told me that ants could be the problem.


It said, sprinkle wood ash over the plants.


Then after a few days the ants disappeared.


I have this friend who really would like to expand his business.


So I went with him to the cyber cafe and we checked out several sites.


When I met him next, he was going to put a windmill at the local school.


I felt proud because something that wasn't there before was suddenly there.


I realized that not everybody can be able to access what I was able to access.


I thought that I need to have an Internet that my grandmother can use.


When I get information on my phone, I'm able to post the information on the notice board.


I think I am searching for a better life for me and my neighbors.


So many people have access to information, but there's no follow-up to that.


I think the follow-up to that is our knowledge.


When people have the knowledge, they can find solutions without having to helped out.


Information is powerful, but it is how we use it that will define us.


LP: Now, the amazing thing about that video, actually, was we just read about it in the news, and we found this gentlemen, and made that little clip.


CR: When I talk to people about you, they say to me, people who know you well, say, Larry wants to change the world, and he believes technology can show the way.


It also means how people can get access and do things that will affect their community, and this is an example.


LP: Yeah, that's right, and I think for me, I have been focusing on access more, if we're talking about the future.


We recently released this Loon Project which is using balloons to do it.


Actually, two out of three people in the world don't have good Internet access now.


We actually think this can really help people sort of cost-efficiently.


CR: It's a balloon. LP: Yeah, get access to the Internet.


CR: And why does this balloon give you access to the Internet?


Because there was some interesting things you had to do to figure out how to make balloons possible, they didn't have to be tethered.


LP: Yeah, and this is a good example of innovation.


Like, we've been thinking about this idea for five years or more before we started working on it, but it was just really, how do we get access points up high, cheaply?


You normally have to use satellites and it takes a long time to launch them.


But you saw there how easy it is to launch a balloon and get it up, and actually again, it's the power of the Internet, I did a search on it, and I found, 30, 40 years ago, someone had put up a balloon and it had gone around the Earth multiple times.


And I thought, why can't we do that today?


CR: But are you at the mercy of the wind?


LP: Yeah, but it turns out, we did some weather simulations which probably hadn't really been done before, and if you control the altitude of the balloons, which you can do by pumping air into them and other ways, you can actually control roughly where they go, and so I think we can build a worldwide mesh of these balloons that can cover the whole planet.


CR: Before I talk about the future and transportation, where you've been a nerd for a while, and this fascination you have with transportation and automated cars and bicycles, let me talk a bit about what's been the subject here earlier with Edward Snowden.


You have to have been thinking about that.


LP: Yeah, absolutely. I saw the picture of Sergey with Edward Snowden yesterday.


But I think, for me, I guess, privacy and security are a really important thing.


We think about it in terms of both things, and I think you can't have privacy without security, so let me just talk about security first, because you asked about Snowden and all of that, and then I'll say a little bit about privacy.


I think for me, it's tremendously disappointing that the government secretly did all this stuff and didn't tell us.


I don't think we can have a democracy if we're having to protect you and our users from the government for stuff that we've never had a conversation about.


And I don't mean we have to know what the particular terrorist attack is they're worried about protecting us from, but we do need to know what the parameters of it is, what kind of surveillance the government's going to do and how and why, and I think we haven't had that conversation.


So I think the government's actually done itself a tremendous disservice by doing all that in secret.


CR: Never coming to Google to ask for anything.


I think we need to have a debate about that, or we can't have a functioning democracy.


So I'm sad that Google's in the position of protecting you and our users from the government doing secret thing that nobody knows about.


CR: Yeah. And then there's a privacy side of it.


LP: Yes. The privacy side, I think it's -- the world is changing.


You carry a phone. It knows where you are.


There's so much more information about you, and that's an important thing, and it makes sense why people are asking difficult questions.


We spend a lot of time thinking about this and what the issues are.


I'm a little bit -- I think the main thing that we need to do is just provide people choice, show them what data's being collected -- search history, location data.


We're excited about incognito mode in Chrome, and doing that in more ways, just giving people more choice and more awareness of what's going on.


What I'm worried is that we throw out the baby with the bathwater.


And I look at, on your show, actually, I kind of lost my voice, and I haven't gotten it back.


I'm hoping that by talking to you I'm going to get it back.


CR: If I could do anything, I would do that.


LP: All right. So get out your voodoo doll and whatever you need to do.


But I think, you know what, I look at that, I made that public, and I got all this information.


We got a survey done on medical conditions with people who have similar issues, and I look at medical records, and I say, wouldn't it be amazing if everyone's medical records were available anonymously to research doctors?


And when someone accesses your medical record, a research doctor, they could see, you could see which doctor accessed it and why, and you could maybe learn about what conditions you have.


I think if we just did that, we'd save 100,000 lives this year.


CR: Absolutely. Let me go — LP: So I guess I'm just very worried that with Internet privacy, we're doing the same thing we're doing with medical records, is we're throwing out the baby with the bathwater, and we're not really thinking about the tremendous good that can come from people sharing information with the right people in the right ways.


CR: And the necessary condition that people have to have confidence that their information will not be abused.


LP: Yeah, and I had this problem with my voice stuff. I was scared to share it.


Sergey encouraged me to do that, and it was a great thing to do.


CR: And the response has been overwhelming.


LP: Yeah, and people are super positive.


We got thousands and thousands of people with similar conditions, which there's no data on today.


CR: So talking about the future, what is it about you and transportation systems?


LP: Yeah. I guess I was just frustrated with this when I was at college in Michigan.


I had to get on the bus and take it and wait for it.


I did some research on how much it cost, and I just became a bit obsessed with transportation systems.


CR: And that began the idea of an automated car.


LP: Yeah, about 18 years ago I learned about people working on automated cars, and I became fascinated by that, and it takes a while to get these projects going, but I'm super excited about the possibilities of that improving the world.


There's 20 million people or more injured per year.


It's the leading cause of death for people under 34 in the U.S.


CR: So you're talking about saving lives.


LP: Yeah, and also saving space and making life better.


Los Angeles is half parking lots and roads, half of the area, and most cities are not far behind, actually.


It's just crazy that that's what we use our space for.


LP: I think we can be there very, very soon.


We've driven well over 100,000 miles now totally automated.


I'm super excited about getting that out quickly.


CR: But it's not only you're talking about automated cars.


LP: Well at Google, we got this idea that we should just provide free bikes to everyone, and that's been amazing, most of the trips.


You see bikes going everywhere, and the bikes wear out.


CR: But you want to put them above the street, too.


LP: Well I said, how do we get people using bikes more?


LP: Yeah, let's show the video. I just got excited about this.


So this is actually how you might separate bikes from cars with minimal cost.


Anyway, it looks totally crazy, but I was actually thinking about our campus, working with the Zippies and stuff, and just trying to get a lot more bike usage, and I was thinking about, how do you cost-effectively separate the bikes from traffic? And I went and searched, and this is what I found.


And we're not actually working on this, that particular thing, but it gets your imagination going.


Give me a sense of the philosophy of your own mind.


You don't simply want to go in some small, measurable arena of progress.


LP: Yeah, I think many of the things we just talked about are like that, where they're really -- I almost use the economic concept of additionality, which means that you're doing something that wouldn't happen unless you were actually doing it.


And I think the more you can do things like that, the bigger impact you have, and that's about doing things that people might not think are possible.


And I've been amazed, the more I learn about technology, the more I realize I don't know, and that's because this technological horizon, the thing that you can see to do next, the more you learn about technology, the more you learn what's possible.


You learn that the balloons are possible because there's some material that will work for them.


CR: What's interesting about you too, though, for me, is that, we have lots of people who are thinking about the future, and they are going and looking and they're coming back, but we never see the implementation.


I think of somebody you knew and read about, Tesla.


LP: Well, I think invention is not enough.


If you invent something, Tesla invented electric power that we use, but he struggled to get it out to people.


And I think if we can actually combine both things, where we have an innovation and invention focus, plus the ability to really -- a company that can really commercialize things and get them to people in a way that's positive for the world and to give people hope.


You know, I'm amazed with the Loon Project just how excited people were about that, because it gave them hope for the two thirds of the world that doesn't have Internet right now that's any good.


CR: Which is a second thing about corporations.


You are one of those people who believe that corporations are an agent of change if they are run well.


LP: Yeah. I'm really dismayed most people think companies are basically evil.


Companies are doing the same incremental thing that they did 50 years ago or 20 years ago.


We need, especially in technology, we need revolutionary change, not incremental change. CR: You once said, actually, as I think I've got this about right, that you might consider, rather than giving your money, if you were leaving it to some cause, just simply giving it to Elon Musk, because you had confidence that he would change the future, and that you would therefore — LP: Yeah, if you want to go Mars, he wants to go to Mars, to back up humanity, that's a worthy goal, but it's a company, and it's philanthropical.


So I think we aim to do kind of similar things.


And I think, you ask, we have a lot of employees at Google who have become pretty wealthy.


People make a lot of money in technology.


A lot of people in the room are pretty wealthy.


You're working because you want to change the world.


Why isn't the company that you work for worthy not just of your time but your money as well?


I mean, but we don't have a concept of that.


That's not how we think about companies, and I think it's sad, because companies are most of our effort.


They're where most of people's time is, where a lot of the money is, and so I think I'd like for us to help out more than we are.


CR: When I close conversations with lots of people, I always ask this question: what quality of mind is it that has served you best?


People like Rupert Murdoch have said curiosity, and other people in the media have said that.


Bill Gates and Warren Buffett have said focus.


What quality of mind, as I leave this audience, has enabled you to think about the future and at the same time change the present?


LP: You know, I think the most important thing -- I looked at lots of companies and why I thought they don't succeed over time.


We've had a more rapid turnover of companies.


And I said, what did they fundamentally do wrong?


And usually it's just that they missed the future.


And so I think, for me, I just try to focus on that and say, what is that future really going to be and how do we create it, and how do we cause our organization, to really focus on that and drive that at a really high rate?


And so that's been curiosity, it's been looking at things people might not think about, working on things that no one else is working on, because that's where the additionality really is, and be willing to do that, to take that risk.


I felt guilty about working on Android when it was starting. It was a little startup we bought.


It wasn't really what we were really working on.


And I felt guilty about spending time on that.


That was stupid. That was the future, right?


CR: It is great to see you here. It's great to hear from you, and a pleasure to sit at this table with you. Thanks, Larry.


Interview: "Domspatzen report exonerates Pope brother Georg Ratzinger"

Interview: "Domspatzen-Bericht entlastet Papst-Bruder Georg Ratzinger"


The Regensburger Domspatzen report on cases of abuse exonerates Pope brother Georg Ratzinger.

Der Regensburger Domspatzen-Bericht zu den Missbrauchsfällen entlastet Papst-Bruder Georg Ratzinger.


That is what author and historian Michael Hesemann says.

Das meint Autor und Historiker Michael Hesemann.


The final report on the abuse scandal at the Regensburger Domspatzen is still causing debate.

Der Abschlussbericht zum Missbrauchskandal bei den Regensburger Domspatzen sorgt weiter für Diskussionen.


After its publication, Christian Weisnder, spokesman for the reform movement "We are Church," explained to the German press agency that he was expecting an apology from the former Bishop of Regensburg and current Cardinal Gerhard Ludwig Müller as well as the cathedral's Master of Music, Georg Ratzinger, the 93-year-old brother of the emeritus Pope Benedikt XVI.

Christian Weisnder, Sprecher der Reformbewegung "Wir sind Kirche", erklärte nach Veröffentlichung gegenüber der Deutschen Presse-Agentur, er erwarte vom früheren Regensburger Bischof und heutigen Kardinal Gerhard Ludwig Müller sowie vom Domkapellmeister Georg Ratzinger, dem 93-jährigen Bruder des emeritierten Papstes Benedikt XVI., eine Entschuldigung.


It would be of great service to the reputation of the Catholic Church if Müller and Ratzinger were to express their deep regret over their own failures or their false assessments of events back then.

Es würde dem Ansehen der katholischen Kirche sehr dienen, wenn Müller und Ratzinger ihr tiefes Bedauern über eigene Unterlassungen oder ihre damals falsche Einschätzung der Vorgänge ausdrücken würden.


The Vatican paper "Osservatore Romano", on the other hand, criticised the fact that the coverage was measuring violence at the Domspatzen using "double standards".

Die Vatikanzeitung "Osservatore Romano" hingegen kritisierte, dass bei der Berichterstattung über Gewalt bei den Domspatzen mit "zweierlei Maß" gemessen werde.


With respect to the assaults in Regensburg, no-one doubts that these were "disgraceful and shameful acts" that must be punished and prevented in future; however, what was striking was the "level of media manipulation," according to the author Lucetta Scaraffia, historian and member of the Italian National Bioethics Committee.

Hinsichtlich der Übergriffe in Regensburg bezweifle niemand, dass es sich um "schändliche und beschämende Taten" handle, die bestraft und in Zukunft verhindert werden müssten; auffällig sei aber der "Grad medialer Manipulation", so die Autorin Lucetta Scaraffia, Historikerin und Mitglied des nationalen italienischen Bioethik-Komitees.


"The habit of denoting the Catholic Church as the source of all evil is now a part of our everyday experience and sets up public opinion for considering that as normal," writes Scaraffia.

"Die Angewohnheit, die katholische Kirche als Quelle aller Übel zu bezeichnen, ist schon Teil der Alltagserfahrung und bereitet die öffentliche Meinung darauf vor, das für normal zu halten", schreibt Scaraffia.


Princess Gloria of Thurn and Taxis also said in an interview with Bavarian Radio that "people love to let loose on the Church, and it is an easy target".

Auch Fürstin Gloria von Thurn und Taxis meinte im Interview mit dem Bayerischen Rundfunk: "Man geht gerne auf die Kirche los und das ist ein gefundenes Fressen".


She also pointed out that in her youth "beatings were a totally normal educational tool for dealing with cheeky children, of which I was one."

Außerdem wies sie darauf hin, dass in ihrer Jugend "Schläge ein ganz normales pädagogisches Mittel" gewesen seien, "um mit frechen Kindern, wie ich eines war, fertig zu werden".


She thought it unfair to apply current standards to previous decades, because the world has changed.

Sie fände es unfair, heutige Maßstäbe auf frühere Jahrzehnte anzuwenden, denn die Welt habe sich verändert.


In connection with the reports on the cases of abuse, Pope brother Georg Ratzinger cropped up a lot.

Im Zusammenhang mit den Berichten über die Missbrauchsfälle tauchte oft auch Papst-Bruder Georg Ratzinger auf.


Absolutely unfair, says author and historian Michael Hesemann, who together with Ratzinger compiled the commemorative volume "My Brother, the Pope" (translated into 12 languages).

Völlig zu Unrecht, meint Autor und Historiker Michael Hesemann, der mit Ratzinger den Erinnerungsband "Mein Bruder der Papst" verfasste (in 12 Sprachen übersetzt).


"I have to come to the defence of Georg Ratzinger," says Hesemann, for in his assessment, the result of the final report "has nothing to do with him".

"Ich muss Georg Ratzinger in Schutz nehmen", sagt Hesemann, "denn all das hatte nichts mit ihm zu tun", wertet er die Ergebnisse des Abschlussberichtes.


What exactly is in the 440-page report that lawyer Ulrich Weber, commissioned by the Diocese of Regensburg, has produced?

Was genau steht in dem 440-seitigen Bericht, den der vom Bistum Regensburg mit der Aufklärung beauftragte Rechtsanwalt Ulrich Weber vorgelegt hat?


In total, 547 members of the Regensburger Domspatzen were "highly likely" the victims of assaults between 1945 and the early 1990s, and 67 Domspatzen were sexually abused.

Insgesamt 547 Regensburger Domspatzen wurden zwischen 1945 und Anfang der 1990er Jahre "mit hoher Plausibilität" Opfer von Übergriffen, 67 Domspatzen sexuell missbraucht.


The final report said of Georg Ratzinger, who was working in Regensburg from 1964 to 1994, that "in summary, it can be determined that forms of corporal and physical violence were used by the cathedral's Master of Music R. in many cases".

Im Abschlussbericht heißt es zu Georg Ratzinger, der von 1964 bis 1994 in Regensburg tätig war: "Zusammenfassend lässt sich also festhalten, dass von Domkapellmeister R. in vielen Fällen Formen körperlicher und psychischer Gewalt angewandt wurden.


When he was highly emotional, in particular, the punishment for the students could be a lot more severe.

Gerade bei hoher Emotionalität konnte die Bestrafung für die Schüler dabei auch heftiger ausfallen.


Despite this, it is apparent that, in contrast to numerous others of the accused, many victims treasured the general humaneness of R. and therefore, in numerous cases, even associate him with positive memories, despite the violence."

Trotzdem fällt im Gegensatz zu zahlreichen anderen Beschuldigten auf, dass viele Opfer die allgemeine Menschlichkeit von R. schätzten und deshalb in zahlreichen Fällen trotz Gewalt sogar positive Erinnerungen mit ihm verbinden".


Hesemann explains in the interview why, in his opinion, the final report on the abuse scandal at the Regensburger Domspatzen exonerates Georg Ratzinger.

Im Interview erklärt Hesemann, wieso der Abschlussbericht zum Missbrauchsskandal bei den Regensburger Domspatzen Georg Ratzinger seiner Meinung nach entlastet.


For Mr Hesemann, the 440-page report on the "incidents of the use of violence against wards at the Regensburger Domspatzen" paints a contradictory picture of the cathedral's Master of Music, Georg Ratzinger.

Herr Hesemann, der 440-Seiten-Bericht über die "Vorfälle von Gewaltausübung an Schutzbefohlenen bei den Regensburger Domspatzen" gibt ein widersprüchliches Bild von Domkapellmeister Georg Ratzinger.


On the one hand, many students stress his "humaneness".

Zum einen heben viele Schüler seine "Menschlichkeit" hervor.


On the other hand, he also comes across as a choleric type and perfectionist, who would often turn to violence if one of the Domspatzen didn't give a top musical performance.

Zum anderen erscheint er auch als Choleriker und Perfektionist, der des Öfteren handgreiflich wurde, wenn ein Domspatz musikalisch keine Top-Leistung brachte.


How do you judge this final report as his biography?

Wie werten Sie als sein Biograph diesen Abschlussbericht?


Michael Hesemann: If one makes the effort and reads the entire 440-page-long report from start to finish, one actually has to ask what the name of Georg Ratzinger is doing in there at all.

Michael Hesemann: Wenn man sich die Mühe macht und den ganzen 440 Seiten langen Bericht von vorne bis hinten liest, muss man sich doch eher fragen, weshalb der Name Georg Ratzinger überhaupt darin vorkommt.


Eight pages are devoted to him, all in one go, and he is clearly exculpated from every suspicion of complicity or connivance in the terrible cases of sexual abuse.

Ihm sind gerade einmal acht Seiten gewidmet und er wird deutlich von jedem Verdacht der Mittäter- oder Mitwisserschaft bei den schrecklichen Fällen sexuellen Missbrauchs freigesprochen.


The extreme acts of violence at the pre-school also occurred outside his sphere of activity.

Auch die Gewaltexzesse an der Vorschule ereigneten sich außerhalb seiner Wirkungssphäre.


At best, one can accuse him of having found out too late or not having taken the first indications seriously enough.

Man kann ihm allenfalls vorwerfen, davon zu spät erfahren oder erste Andeutungen nicht ernst genug genommen zu haben.


The Domspatzen secondary school, where he was active, was perceived by practically all of those asked as – to quote – "salvation", "heaven" and a "better world".

Das Domspatzengymnasium, auf dem er wirkte, wurde von praktisch allen Befragten als - so wörtlich - "Erlösung", "Himmel" und "bessere Welt" empfunden.


So, the vast majority of his students gave Georg Ratzinger a quite glowing testimonial, describing him as "warm-hearted", "beloved", "sincere", "competent" and "understanding", as an extremely good-natured teacher who regularly provide the boys with cakes, biscuits and sweets and was "always mobbed by clusters of children".

So stellt auch die breite Mehrheit seiner Schüler Georg Ratzinger ein ganz exzellentes Zeugnis aus, beschreibt ihn als "warmherzig", "beliebt", "aufrichtig", "kompetent" und "verständnisvoll", als äußerst gutmütigen Lehrer, der die Jungs regelmäßig mit Kuchen, Keksen und Bonbons versorgte und "immer von Trauben von Kindern umlagert" war.


Only a minority complained about his perfectionism and his high emotionality, which from time to time also led to outbursts of anger.

Lediglich eine Minderheit beschwert sich über seinen Perfektionismus und seine hohe Emotionalität, die auch schon mal zu Wutausbrüchen führte.


The fact that during the course of this he not only banged chairs and threw his bunch of keys to the floor, but even handed out slaps around the face and pulled on the hair or ears of all-too-impudent boys is something that he himself already admitted years ago, that he deeply regrets and apologises for.

Dass er dabei nicht nur mit Stühlen knallte und den Schlüsselbund auf den Boden warf, sondern auch Ohrfeigen verteilte und allzu freche Jungs an den Haaren oder Ohren zog, hat er selbst bereits vor Jahren zugegeben, zutiefst bedauert und sich dafür entschuldigt.


In his defence, however, it must also be said that such methods of education in that questionable period between the 1960s and 1970s were wide-spread amongst parents as well as teachers.

Zu seiner Ehrenrettung muss allerdings gesagt werden, dass solche Erziehungsmethoden in der fraglichen Zeit, den 1960er und 1970er Jahren, weit verbreitet waren, bei Eltern wie bei Lehrern.


Do you remember such castigation methods?

Kennen Sie auch noch solche Züchtigungs-Methoden?


I'm thinking of those of us who were born before 1968, of course.

Natürlich, ich denke jeder von uns, der vor 1968 geboren wurde.


I too experienced that, in a secular school, too, a state Gymnasium.

Auch ich habe das noch in einer weltlichen Schule, einem staatlichen Gymnasium, erlebt.


Compared to what this report is actually about, namely, appalling sexual abuse and acts of extreme violence at preschool, these are of course mere trifles.

Verglichen mit dem, worum es eigentlich in diesem Bericht geht, nämlich dem entsetzlichen sexuellen Missbrauch und den Gewaltexzessen auf der Vorschule, sind das freilich Bagatellen.


So one cannot help but ask whether the fact that lots of media are bearing down on him in particular does not have more to do with his fame and his role as the brother of Benedikt XVI.

Da fragt man sich schon, ob es nicht eher mit seiner Bekanntheit und seiner Rolle als Bruder von Benedikt XVI. zu tun hat, dass sich viele Medien gerade auf ihn stürzten.


Indeed, lots of people are still slaving away assiduously on the Bavarian Pope who have never understood him.

Am bayerischen Papst arbeiten sich ja viele, die ihn nie verstanden haben, noch immer eifrig ab.


But the truth is: the report exonerates Georg Ratzinger in every way!

Die Wahrheit aber ist: Der Bericht entlastet Georg Ratzinger in jeder Hinsicht!


In the media, there was a lot reported on the subject of abuse at the Regensburger Domspatzen in connection with the report.

In den Medien wurde im Zusammenhang mit dem Bericht sehr viel über das Thema Missbrauch bei den Regensburger Domspatzen berichtet.


Is Georg Ratzinger also being accused in the final report of some kind of involvement or complicity in respect of sexual abuse?

Wird Georg Ratzinger im Abschlussbericht auch irgendeine Verwicklung oder Mitwisserschaft im Hinblick auf sexuellen Missbrauch zur Last gelegt?


Not a single one of the 67 victims of sexual assaults claims to have confided in the cathedral's Master of Music.

Kein einziges der 67 Opfer sexueller Übergriffe behauptet, sich dem Domkapellmeister anvertraut zu haben.


Not once were the parents brought in the loop.

Nicht einmal die Eltern waren eingeweiht.


"I never dared talk about it with my father or my mother," said one of those affected, as a representative for the others, "It was always very embarrassing for me".

"Ich habe mich nie getraut, mit meinem Vater oder meiner Mutter darüber zu sprechen", sagte ein Betroffener stellvertretend für die anderen aus, "Es war mir ja alles sehr peinlich".


But the real problem when it comes to throwing light on sexual abuse was and is that the majority of victims stay silent out of shame.

Das wahre Problem bei der Aufklärung von sexuellem Missbrauch war und ist doch, dass die meisten Opfer aus Scham schweigen.


If they don't even confide in parents and siblings, then they for sure are not going to to a choir leader, who after all had been a professional colleague, as it were, of the perpetrators.

Wenn sie sich nicht einmal Eltern und Geschwistern anvertrauten, dann ganz bestimmt nicht einem Chorleiter, der doch beruflich gewissermaßen ein Kollege der Täter gewesen wäre.


How do the Domspatzen schoolboys judge Ratzinger's role in respect of the cases of abuse?

Wie bewerten denn die Domspatzen-Schüler Ratzingers Rolle im Hinblick auf die Missbrauchsfälle?


Michael Hesemann: One pupil asked put it this way: "Regarding sexual abuse... I see... no case where he of all people (Georg Ratzinger) had had early enough knowledge and could have stopped the perpetrators in question.

Michael Hesemann: Ein befragter Schüler formulierte es so: "Bezüglich sexuellen Missbrauchs ... sehe ich ... keinen Fall, in dem ausgerechnet er (Georg Ratzinger) rechtzeitige Erkenntnisse gehabt hätte und den jeweiligen Täter hätte aufhalten können.


I also think... it is quite absurd to assume that... boys opened up more emphatically or clearly or even sooner to him, of all people, than to their parents, the heads of their boarding houses, mentors etc.

Ich halte es ... auch für wirklich absurd, anzunehmen, dass sich ausgerechnet ihm ... Buben eindringlicher bzw. klarer oder auch eher eröffnet haben, als gegenüber ihren Eltern, Internatsleitern, Vertrauenslehrern etc.


That one would speak with him about sex... – unthinkable."

Dass man mit ihm über Sex spricht ... - undenkbar."


So, the report comes to the quite clear conclusion: "That affected pupils and/or those around them confided in him beforehand could not be confirmed within the scope of the investigation."

So kommt der Bericht zu dem ganz klaren Ergebnis: "Dass sich ihm im Vorfeld betroffene Schüler und/oder deren Umfeld anvertrauten, konnte im Rahmen der Untersuchung nicht bestätigt werden".


As far as sexual abuse is concerned, Georg Ratzinger has therefore been absolved of any complicity.

Was sexuellen Missbrauch betrifft, ist Georg Ratzinger also von jeder Mitwisserschaft freizusprechen.


Therefore, he can also not be accused of not having stopped it or reported it.

So kann ihm auch nicht vorgeworfen werden, ihn nicht verhindert oder zur Anzeige gebracht zu haben.


There is therefore also no reason to bring his good name into association with this despicable crime, as unfortunately happened in some cases.

Daher besteht auch kein Grund, seinen guten Namen mit diesen widerwärtigen Verbrechen in Verbindung zu bringen, wie es leider in einigen Fällen geschah.


In the media, one read a lot about "extreme acts of violence" at the Regensburger Domspatzen.

In den Medien war viel von "Gewaltexzessen" bei den Regensburger Domspatzen zu lesen.


The former cathedral Master of Music, Georg Ratzinger, is accused in the report of "turning a blind eye".

Dem früheren Domkapellmeister Georg Ratzinger wird in dem Bericht "Wegschauen" vorgeworfen.


Does he have to live with this accusation then?


Michael Hesemann: That is indeed the big problem, that in the coverage, everything was mixed up and confounded into a huge melange of sexual abuse and acts of extreme violence and somewhere, in the middle of that, was Georg Ratzinger.

Michael Hesemann: Das ist ja das große Problem, dass in der Berichterstattung alles vermischt und vermengt wurde zu einer riesigen Melange aus sexuellem Missbrauch und Gewaltexzessen und irgendwo, mitten drin, Georg Ratzinger.


But precisely that, in turn, is an abuse of the report.

Doch genau das ist wiederum ein Missbrauch des Berichtes.


That is to say, there is a clean separation there: between the preschool and the secondary school of the Domspatzen, between sexual abuse and acts of violence as well as, shall we say, other accusations.

Da wird nämlich sauber getrennt: Zwischen der Vorschule und dem Gymnasium der Domspatzen, zwischen sexuellem Missbrauch und Gewaltexzessen sowie, sagen wir einmal, sonstigen Vorwürfen.


What is more, the report handles cases from the period since 1945, that is, from four decades, as well, when Georg Ratzinger was not choir leader of the Domspatzen.

Zudem behandelt der Bericht Vorfälle aus der Zeit seit 1945, also auch aus vier Jahrzehnten, in denen Georg Ratzinger nicht Chorleiter der Domspatzen war.


The whole hideous educational theory of spanking, the cases where boys were downright bullied and maltreated by sadistic teachers, and from which they suffered terribly, all of these took place in the preschool in Etterzhausen and Pielenhofen, where really scandalous conditions must have prevailed.

Die ganze schreckliche Prügelpädagogik, die Fälle, in denen Knaben von sadistischen Lehrern regelrecht schikaniert und malträtiert wurden und darunter entsetzlich litten, ereigneten sich allesamt auf der Vorschule in Etterzhausen und Pielenhofen, wo wirklich skandalöse Zustände geherrscht haben müssen.


Yet the cathedral's Master of Music Georg Ratzinger had nothing to do with these, for he first set eyes on the boys when they were already at the Domspatzen secondary school.

Doch mit denen hatte Domkapellmeister Georg Ratzinger nichts zu tun, denn er bekam die Jungen erst zu Gesicht, als sie bereits auf dem Domspatzengymnasium waren.


There, as the vast majority of witnesses stress, the topic of the "preschool" was taboo.

Auf dem war, wie die allermeisten Zeugen betonen, das Thema "Vorschule" tabu.


One was only happy to have got away from it and enjoyed the much better treatment and the conditions that were even "paradisiacal" for many.

Man war nur glücklich, ihr entkommen zu sein und genoss die so viel bessere Behandlung und für viele sogar "paradiesischen" Zustände.


What was different at the Domspatzen secondary school then?

Was war denn anders auf dem Domspatzengymnasium?


Michael Hesemann: Discipline still ruled there, sure, but there was no sadistic violence.

Michael Hesemann: Da herrschte zwar schon Disziplin, aber eben keine sadistische Gewalt.


And that applies to Georg Ratzinger likewise, in relation to whom the report concludes that "many victims treasured the general humaneness of R. and therefore, in numerous cases, even associate him with positive memories, despite the violence."

Und das gilt eben auch für Georg Ratzinger, bei dem der Bericht zu dem Schluss kommt, dass "viele Opfer die allgemeine Menschlichkeit von R. schätzten und deshalb in zahlreichen Fällen trotz Gewalt sogar positive Erinnerungen mit ihm verbinden".


So, at best, there remains the accusation of having turned a blind eye.

So bleibt höchstens noch der Vorwurf, weggeschaut zu haben.


Yet despite all the efforts, the report could only define two periods in which he was given reports about the conditions at the preschool.

Doch trotz aller Bemühungen konnte der Bericht nur zwei Zeiträume definieren, in denen ihm von den Zuständen auf der Vorschule berichtet wurde.


The first time in 1970/71, when he was just beginning to establish himself and did not want to hear about the practices in a school where he did not even work and for which he was not responsible (according to the witness), and then next only in around 1993.

Das erste Mal 1970/71, als er sich gerade zu etablieren begann und von den Vorgängen an einer Schule, an der er eben nicht wirkte und verantwortlich war, (so der Zeuge) nichts hören wollte, und dann erst wieder um 1993.


Did Georg Ratzinger systematically close his ears to the conditions?

Verschloss Georg Ratzinger vor den Zuständen konsequent die Ohren?


Michael Hesemann: No, for already in 1989 he wrote a letter to the director of the Domspatzen secondary school, which was even reproduced in the report.

Michael Hesemann: Nein, denn schon 1989 schrieb er einen Brief an den Direktor des Domspatzengymnasiums, den der Bericht sogar reproduziert.


In that, he pointed this out, "that in the preschool corporal punishment is still practised."

Darin weist er diesen darauf hin, "dass in der Vorschule weiterhin die Prügelstrafe praktiziert werde".


Even when facing the risk of negative press releases he recommended urgent intervention.

Schon angesichts der Gefahr negativer Presseveröffentlichungen empfahl er dringendes Einschreiten.


That was naturally at a time when there was legal clarity that corporal punishment had long been banned in Bavaria too.

Das war natürlich zu einem Zeitpunkt, als rechtliche Klarheit bestand, als Prügelstrafen auch in Bayern längst verboten waren.


Before that, it was taking place in a legal grey zone, as every one of us well knows.

Davor ereigneten sie sich in einer rechtlichen Grauzone, wie jeder von uns wohl noch weiß.


So it was also difficult for him to assess where those affected were perhaps exaggerating or dramatising and where the permissible limits had really been overstepped.

Da war auch für ihn schwer abzuschätzen, wo die Betroffenen vielleicht übertrieben oder dramatisierten und wo wirklich die zulässige Grenze überschritten worden war.


But one cannot say that he always turned a blind eye.

Man kann aber auch nicht sagen, er hätte immer weggeschaut.


It was first in 1980 that corporal punishment in schools was officially abolished in Bavaria as well.

Erst im Jahr 1980 wurde die Prügelstrafe an Schulen auch in Bayern offiziell abgeschafft.


Princess Gloria of Thurn and Taxis indeed asserts that it is unfair to apply today's educational standards to that earlier time.

Fürstin Gloria von Thurn und Taxis behauptete ja, es sei unfair, die heutigen pädagogischen Maßstäbe auf die damalige Zeit anzuwenden.


Michael Hesemann: We historians talk here about "the pitfall of anachronism", that is, the danger of evaluating the past according to today's moral standards.

Michael Hesemann: Wir Historiker reden da vom "Fallstrick des Anachronismus", also der Gefahr, Vergangenes nach heutigen moralischen Maßstäben zu bewerten.


But this of course does not apply to sexual abuse, which was despicable at all times, and also not to that which was perpetrated in the preschool in terms of vile acts and violence against innocent children; that of course goes far beyond what was accepted back then.

Aber das gilt natürlich nicht für sexuellen Missbrauch, der zu allen Zeiten abscheulich war und auch nicht für das, was in der Vorschule an Widerwärtigkeiten und Gewalt an unschuldigen Kinderseelen verbrochen wurde, das geht schon weit über das damals Übliche hinaus.


That is all absolutely terrible and I am glad that it is finally being looked into.

Das ist alles ganz schrecklich und ich bin froh, dass es endlich aufgearbeitet wird.


But at the same time I have to come to the defence of Georg Ratzinger, for all that has nothing to do with him.

Aber gleichzeitig muss ich Georg Ratzinger in Schutz nehmen, denn all das hatte nichts mit ihm zu tun.


His means of disciplining and punishing, that is, slapping around the face and pulling the hair and ears, was widespread in the 1970s.

Seine Mittel zur Disziplinierung und Bestrafung, also Ohrfeigen und an den Haaren und Ohren zu ziehen, waren in den 1970ern weit verbreitet.


When corporal punishment was then banned, he complied strictly with that too.

Als körperliche Bestrafung dann verboten wurde, hat er sich auch strikt daran gehalten.


What image of his time in Regensburg did Georg Ratzinger reflect then in his conversations with you for the book "My Brother, the Pope"?

Welches Bild von seiner Regensburger Zeit hat Georg Ratzinger denn in den Gesprächen mit Ihnen für das Buch "Mein Bruder der Papst" wiedergegeben?


Did the subject of corporal punishment ever come up?

Kam das Thema Prügelstrafe dabei auch zur Sprache?


Michael Hesemann: Look, the book is about the life of his brother Joseph, that is Pope Benedikt XVI., told from his perspective, so the Domspatzen played only a subsidiary role.

Michael Hesemann: Nun, in dem Buch geht es doch um das Leben seines Bruders Joseph, also Papst Benedikts XVI., erzählt aus seiner Perspektive, da spielten die Domspatzen nur eine Nebenrolle.


Nevertheless, I do not at all conceal that he ran a strict regime there.

Trotzdem verschweige ich ja keineswegs, dass er dort ein strenges Regiment führte.


But this too has to be said: without this perfectionism, without this demand for absolute discipline, it would hardly have been possible for him to forge from the Regensburger Domspatzen – up until that point famous rather on a national level – a world-class institution, a cultural ambassador for Europe and its musical tradition, that twice a-piece went on tour to the USA (1983 and 1987) and to Japan (1988 and 1991).

Doch auch das muss einmal gesagt werden: Ohne diesen Perfektionismus, ohne das Einfordern unbedingter Disziplin, wäre es ihm wohl kaum möglich gewesen, aus den bis dahin eher national bekannten Regensburger Domspatzen eine Institution von Weltrang zu formen, wahre Kulturbotschafter Europas und seiner musikalischen Tradition, die gleich zweimal in den USA (1983 und 1987) und Japan (1988 und 1991) auf Tournee gingen.


Not with biscuits and sweets alone does one all at once turn insubordinate boys into great singers, and face every success, regardless of the area, but rather, with continuous discipline, passion and self-conquest.

Mit Keksen und Bonbons allein macht man aus widerspenstigen Knaben nun einmal keine großen Sänger und vor jedem Erfolg stehen, gleich auf welchem Gebiet, doch immer Disziplin, Leidenschaft und Selbstüberwindung.


What kind of impression did you get of Georg Ratzinger the man then in those conversations for your book?

Als was für einen Menschen haben Sie denn Georg Ratzinger bei den Gesprächen zu ihrem Buch erlebt?


Michael Hesemann: Through the work on the book and beyond that, I got to know Georg Ratzinger really very well, and my experience of him was always as a wonderful, humorous, totally benevolent, deeply devout and good-hearted man, who one cannot imagine would be capable of even hurting a fly.

Michael Hesemann: Durch die Arbeit an dem Buch und darüber hinaus habe ich Georg Ratzinger wirklich ganz gut kennengelernt und immer wieder als wunderbaren, humorvollen, grundgütigen, tief gläubigen und herzensguten Menschen erlebt, von dem man sich nicht vorstellen kann, dass er auch nur einer Fliege etwas zuleide tun könnte.


I regularly hear how many former Domspatzen still today keep in regular contact with him, 23 years after his retirement, visit him, read to him – he is almost blind – and treat him like a member of their family.

Ich bekomme regelmäßig mit, wie viele ehemalige Domspatzen noch heute, 23 Jahre nach seiner Emeritierung, regelmäßig Kontakt zu ihm halten, ihn besuchen, ihm vorlesen - er ist fast blind - und ihn wie ein Mitglied ihrer Familie behandeln.


Those who up until today still do not forgive him for once being too strict with them are therefore in the minority.

Diejenigen, die ihm bis heute nicht vergeben, dass er einmal streng zu ihnen war, sind also eindeutig in der Minderheit.


Most Domspatzen are today grateful to him for enriching their lives and bringing them nearer to the world of music.

Die meisten Domspatzen sind ihm heute dankbar dafür, dass er ihr Leben bereichert und ihnen die Welt der Musik nahegebracht hat.


And for always being a good, fatherly teacher – a strict father, sure, that may well be – but also a loving person, to be respected, whom they still look up to today and downright worship.

Und dass er immer ein guter, väterlicher Lehrer - ein strenger Vater, gewiss, das mag sein - aber doch auch eine liebenswerte Respektsperson war, zu der sie heute noch aufschauen und die sie geradezu verehren.


And please, once more, just to be clear: all that he is accused of are methods of education, that back then were order of the day.

Und bitte, noch einmal ganz deutlich: Alles, was man ihm vorwirft, sind Erziehungsmethoden, die damals an der Tagesordnung waren.


We can be glad that we have long overcome this time.

Wir können froh sein, dass wir diese Zeit längst überwunden haben.


But it is highly unjust to make a media scapegoat out of a man just because he is prominent and has an even more prominent brother.

Aber es ist höchst ungerecht, einen Mann, nur weil er prominent ist und einen noch prominenteren Bruder hat, zum medialen Sündenbock zu machen.


The evil intention behind that is all too obvious.

Da ist die böse Absicht, die dahinter steht, nur allzu offensichtlich.


For the report that was just published exonerates him.

Denn der Bericht, der gerade veröffentlicht wurde, entlastet ihn.


Now one would ask for the decency to finally leave in peace a 93-year-old man who has rendered great service and without whom probably no-one outside Bavaria and perhaps even Germany would know of the Regensburger Domspatzen

Jetzt würde der Anstand gebieten, einen 93-jährigen Mann, der sich große Verdienste erworben hat und ohne den außerhalb Bayerns und vielleicht noch Deutschlands wohl niemand die Regensburger Domspatzen kennen würde, endlich in Frieden zu lassen.